You know, it’s nothing like the doctor sitting and telling you that like you’re not sick yet, but you will be. “Oh yeah, yeah…it’s not bothering you now, but it will bother you later.” How you gonna tell somebody something like that? You’re pronouncing me dead 5 years down the line before you, you know before you’re seeing stuff…and having doctors read my chart and read, you know, when the blood work comes back? I’ve had doctors look sad and disappointed that they’re not able to diagnose me with diabetes. “…mmm, oh, well we got your numbers back, but umm…yeah, you didn’t you didn’t test positive…” “you know, yeah you’re right you did test negative for diabetes and um…” I’m like “What you said for?” Ya know, I thought this is what doctors wanted.
Dr. Joy Cox is a body justice advocate, researcher, and leader who addresses the intersections of race, body size, accessibility, and “health.” She holds a Ph.D. from Rutgers University, is the host of the pro-fat, pro-Black podcast Fresh Out the Cocoon, and has been featured in articles by the Huffington
Post and SELF magazine. Additionally, Dr. Cox serves on the Advisory Board for the Association for Size Diversity and Health (ASDAH) and is the cofounder of Jabbie, a body inclusive, identity affirming fitness app.
Her new book, Fat Girls in Black Bodies: Creating Communities of Our Own, contends with the systemically harmful treatment of fat Black girls and womxn and the methods through which belonging, resistance, and acceptance can be cultivated.
Kim Crayton: Welcome to today’s episode of the #CauseAScene podcast. My guest today is Dr. Joy Cox. Dr. Joy Cox, please introduce yourself to the audience.
Dr. Joy Cox: Hello, everyone. I am Dr. Joy Cox. I am a Philadelphia native who studies the intersections of race and weight stigma, primarily within the context of health. And I’m currently in New Jersey, happy to be here, and excited. I am a fat Black woman, cis gender, all that good jazz. So that’s me in a nutshell.
Kim: Alright. And I once again forgot to include pronouns. Dr. Joy’s pronouns, I mean, Dr. Cox’s pronouns are she / her. All right, so we always start this conversation with two questions: why is it important to cause a scene? And how are you causing a scene?
Dr. Cox: Yeah, so I mean I think, you know, when I think about causing a scene, at least from my personality standpoint, it’s… usually a scene is caused because you’ve tried your hardest not to cause a scene. And so causing a scene sometimes is important because people act like they don’t hear you the first time you said something. So then you know, you gotta kind of somewhat raise your voice a little bit and make yourself known in ways that maybe you generally didn’t decide to initially. Just to make sure that they heard what you said and you meant it. [Kim laughs] Yeah.
Dr. Cox: Yeah. I mean…
Kim: So how are you causing a scene? [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Yeah, I was gonna say. I guess to speak to that point, how am I causing a scene, I think because of the angle that I take as it relates to weight stigma, larger bodies, and the acceptance of those, I think that it stirs people in ways that typically they are not stirred, and again, when I say that we deserve respect, when I say to leave us alone and let us fat in peace, that’s what I mean. And, you know, sometimes you gotta say it loud enough so people can hear it.
Kim: OK, so… I want to… you have just triggered so much in my mind right now. Because… mmm, OK, I don’t even know where I want to start with this. So I guess I’ll just start with: what is weight stigma? We’ll start there.
Dr. Cox: Yeah, so stigma, well, weight stigma would be this—I hate to define words with words—but oftentimes if you think about what stigma is, it’s kind of this mark that’s put on people in a negative way as it relates to their personality traits or behavior. So stigma is one of those things that often are not erased. It’s looked at as a blemish on a person’s character. And more so on their identity, right? So when we talk about weight stigma, we’re talking about a mark or blemish that’s put on someone’s character or their identity based on the weight that they carry on their bodies.
Kim: Girl. OK, so I’m just gonna tell you, you have hit so much so much that I’ve been thinking about here lately.
Dr. Cox: OK.
Kim: Ooh! And being fat in peace, and the blemish part. So one of the things, so I was a skinny-ass kid. That’s who I was. I was a skinny-ass kid. And I can tell you, in my early twenties… well, first of all, I was so skinny that I was unhealthy. And it wasn’t out of any medical thing; I just wouldn’t gain weight. So my doctor—I had to gain weight. But that made me think, when I started gaining more weight, that there was a problem. So I can literally remember being in my twenties, early twenties, when I was acting, and I was maybe 125 pounds and people saying that was too big. And so as I’ve gotten older—I am 51—I was in the shower this very morning saying, “Love your body.” I was looking at my arms; they don’t look like what they looked like in my teens. But neither is my brain.
I mean, it’s like I can accept that I’ve grown, my body’s changed, I developed mentally, but for some reason, holding on to this—not just holding on to it, but we don’t just hold onto this idea of getting back to that size, but we also internalize, as you said, a blemish that there’s something wrong, and I mean, it’s illogical in any other sense would I think that my anything at 51 is supposed to look like it did at 18. I would say I hadn’t developed. I would say there was something wrong if I was the same. I mean, literally our body cells are not the same. But yet we have this thing that we have to… this imagined thing, and it’s not just this… it’s just like—I’m gonna be honest—it’s not even a blemish, it is disgust. It is absolute disgust. This is one reason—I have to be honest—I love Lizzo, because she puts it in my face and she makes me see it and makes me appreciate whatever—I mean, that is a Black woman. That’s many women.
Dr Cox: That’s a lot of Black women. That’s our moms and our aunties and our grandmas; that’s all of them.
Kim: And that makes… and so I can remember when my mom started gaining weight after she had a hysterectomy in her forties, I did not want her to go anywhere with me, I did not want her to be seen with me because I was embarrassed that my mom was fat. Think about that shit. Think about the psychology of that.
Dr. Cox: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and as somebody who’s lived in a fat body their whole life, imagine being that person. You’re always the rejected person. You’re always the third wheel. You’re always the person that’s like, “Oh, can you step a little bit out of the picture?” Like, “You know, we just want to take a picture. Is it OK if we just take a picture here?” You’re the person that people don’t go shopping with, right? All of that stuff happens, right? And then there’s a point that even within my own life, I was like, “Look, y’all gonna have to take these hips because they ain’t going nowhere.” [Kim laughs] And I’m tired of fightin’ with them, trying to get them to go somewhere. So there’s this sense of me making peace with myself, but then also, kind of like you said about causin’ a scene, bein’ willin’ to square up if necessary in public, because I’m not shrinking myself for people anymore.
Kim: Oh, my… OK, so that speaks—and I love how this is a fat Black woman conversation—because that speaks to so much, because they see us as Mammies. They see us as these roles of takin’ care of everybody, and we’re not supposed to take care of ourselves. But if we’re fat, then we’re not healthy, and all these other things, and they put all these… everything about our bodies are not ours. We don’t get agency over ’em, we don’t… I see so many… and another thing that’s been trippin’ me in my head is so many Black women who are now getting plastic surgery. When I was growin’ up, we—I don’t know if it was ’cause we didn’t have money or what—but we didn’t get no plastic surgery. And I’m looking at how many Black women whose bodies have been altered, particularly their asses; the hips to ass ratio.
Dr. Cox: When the standard of what people say… that was us. Right? So now there’s this sense of takin’ this extra step to where you are creatin’—it’s like a character, like a caricature of yourself.
Kim: Oh yeah, because it’s not our natural body, because my butt does not sit like that. I have a Black woman’s ass, but it does not sit like a bubble. It does not sit like that. And so then in my head, until… I mean, there was a person in my life who has one of those butts, and we were havin’ a conversation, ’cause she was about to get more plastic surgery, and I was like, “I didn’t realize you had plastic surgery.” She’s gonna get her boobs done, and then I was like, “Is that your natural ass?” She was like, “No.” And I was like—and I think about all the times I’ve looked at her ass, thinking…
Dr Cox: It was natural. [Laughs] But you know, that’s where we are. I feel like that’s part of society where we are; we have in society deemed statuses, right? Your social status, for women in general, a lot of that is determined by what you look like. And so you have these standards that have been set that are unrealistic—we could talk about who sets these standards if we want to, right?
Kim: Oh yeah, and we gonna get into that, Boo-Boo. We gonna get into that because these standards weren’t even acceptable until Kim Kardashian all of a sudden. It was like, wait a minute, we have been… what the hell? We have been curvy our whole lives. Hold on.
Dr Cox: And more so, who’s writin’ the standards? Because nine times out of 10, it’s not women. So Billy and them is writin’ the standard about our bodies and saying, “This is what makes you cute. This is what makes you acceptable,” and then we race to get that so that we could validate a standard that was never decided by us in the first place.
Kim: And and it’s not even—it’s a caricature because it is not… I mean, that’s why she’s goin’ back for more surgery because it didn’t last. I was tryin’ to have a conversation with her like, “Is this something you’re going to do yearly? What the hell is this?”
Dr Cox: Right. Just a bunch of… I don’t know what they even pump booties full of.
Kim: They took it from her, she had a lipo and they took it from there. They took the fat from there.
Dr Cox: I think at some point that there has to be a reckoning that we have with ourselves, internally, and I’m not…
Kim: I talk about internalized white supremacy and anti-Blackness so much.
Dr. Cox: Right. All of that stuff internally that we need to talk about, and figure out why do we do the things that we do, right? So I’m not sayin’ that everything that we do comes from the outside inward. There’s some stuff that I wanna do—if I wanna turn on Megan the Stallion and twerk in my room, that’s what I’m doin’ and I’m doin’ it for myself and it’s not for other people, and that’s cool. But I do think that when we start talkin’ about social status and we start talkin’ about other people being able to see us and validate what it is, how we look like, and if we’re fitting into these standards, I think some of that does come from the outside in, and we need to start unpacking why we do what we do and what really matters, ’cause at the end of the day—like you say—you’re gonna be 50 years old, and then what happens to all of that stuff that you have pumped somewhere else? Or what happens if next month the trend changes and now we’re talkin’ about big arms are what’s sexy and not big asses. ‘Cause then we gonna be back at the doctor’s place, aksin’ them to pull fat from our butts and stick ’em in our arms. And it’s like at some point, we gotta have agency over our own bodies, and that has to matter to us on some level.
Kim: There’s such a historical perspective that so many people miss about Black women not having agency over our bodies and the lineage of that and the trauma of that. Because even when I was talkin’ to this individual, ’cause I’m not… I’m like, “You know what? I’m not gonna judge; if this is what you wanna do with yo body this is what you wanna do wit yo body.” But when she came back after havin’ surgery and tellin’ me that the doctor didn’t do her breasts right and she was gonna go… I was like, “Wait a goddamn minute! You just had this surgery. And now you talkin’ about going back to fix something that you think is not perfect?” Who defined perfect? This is why I challenge people when they say “fair” and “good” and “nice”; only people who in power and privilege to get to define those terms.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right, right, right. So there’s a number of different layers when we start to talk about power, and then we start to talk about—so like your friend gettin’ plastic surgery, right? That’s about access. Who has access to that? So even if you’re not the person that is characterized as somebody who’s fair, good, and nice, do you have the access to change it? And when we start talkin’, particularly in my case, when we start talkin’ about fat bodies, there is no access to change this. There is no… I was at one point in my life, I was eatin’ between 1200 calories a day, and my body was like I’ll give you 30 pounds, but that’s the gist of it. You gonna have to deal—this other 250 here?—babe, you gonna have to deal with that. I let you shave 30. But after that the buck stops here.
And I felt myself really havin’ to have conversations wit me about me and why it is that I wanted to change my body, and what it was that I was looking to have access to. Now, here it is: I got a PhD; I live by myself; I got a decent job; I’m payin’ all my bills. I’m not really…
Kim: But that ain’t enough.
Dr. Cox: And I’m not hurtin’ for looks and stuff. People callin’, textin’, all that good and fancy stuff. So what is it about you that you believe that you don’t have access to in this body? Who are you trying to prove something to at this point? And that was a real conversation that I had to have wit myself and be like, “Yeah, I think it’s more internal, and it’s in your mind an’ you need to fix some things as a relates to that.” And then stand up for other people, ’cause goin’ to the doctor’s ain’t no joke. And people are dying.
Kim: Oh, yeah, ’cause I’m sure I know I’m told I’m overweight, and I’m at 180.
Dr. Cox: Child, child.
Kim: I know what you hearin’. [Laughs]
Dr Cox: Not only am I overweight, but there’s also… you know, it’s nothin’ like a doctor sittin’ and tellin’ you that, “You’re not sick yet. But you will be. Oh, yeah, yeah. It’s not botherin’ you now, but it will bother you later.” How you gonna tell somebody somethin’ like that? You pronouncin’ me dead five years down the line before you’re seeing stuff and havin’ doctors read my chart and read—you know, when the blood works come back—I’ve had doctors look sad and disappointed that they’re not able to diagnose me with diabetes. “Ooh, well we got your numbers back, but, yeah, you didn’t test positive; yeah, you’re right, you did test negative for diabetes, and um…” I’m like, “Well, what you sad for? I thought this is what doctors wanted.”
Kim: Well OK, what’s interesting to me though, and this is why I shy away from allopathic doctors—and for people who don’t know what those are, those’re your regular medical doctors—and I leaned towards allopathic doctors who are also naturopaths. Allopathic doctors say, “you’re well” on a scale of illness. I want to see “you well” on a scale of wellness. And so once I started hearing that, they were no longer talking about my weight; they were talkin’ about, “You’re allergic to gluten; you might wanna… that stuff is…” [Laughs] They weren’t looking for diagnoses, they weren’t looking for effects, but they were lookin’ for causes; that’s another big difference between allopathic and naturopathic doctors. They’re looking for causes of stuff.
Dr Cox: Damn, I need a naturo—what’s this called? Naturopathic doctor? I need a naturopathic doctor.
Kim: Oh girl yes, and I’m sure there’s Black ones in Philly. There has to be.
Dr Cox: Yeah, somebody. Jersey, I’ll travel. I’m willin’ to make the drive.
Kim: Oh yes, baby. There are beautiful Black naturopathic doctors that understand our bodies, that don’t shame us, that understand our energy. Yeah, I would never—at this point—unless I’m in an emergency, go see a white doctor. I just won’t. Because they don’t get any of this. [Laughs] But first of all, I want to ask you how did you get into this area? I mean, where… [laughs]
Dr Cox: I mean, like I said, I’ve been fat my whole life. I have two sisters, both who are smaller than me, and so I grew up as the fat kid. And the fat kid—I mean, and to some point, like the fat active kid, right? I am the opposite of what they say fat people are supposed to be.
Kim: Ah, so you wan’t sittin’ on the couch eatin’ chips all day,
Dr Cox: Right. I’m not the stereotypical fat person, and so when I hear people talk about other fat people, I’ll be like, “Who are y’all talkin’ about? Y’all can’t…” [Kim laughs] Like, “this doesn’t make any sense.” And so I was doin’ my masters—in the midst of doin’ my master’s program—I was at Mizzou, [The University of Missouri] in Missouri, and I was watchin’ TV one night. Why I was watchin’ the news, probably because I didn’t have any other channels. [Kim laughs] But I was watchin’ the TV, and it came over the news that the AMA was working to have obesity listed as a disability. And I flipped out. Now, at the time I was at Mizzou, I was studying interpersonal relationships, because I wanted to know about love and all this other stuff, and I thought it was really cool.
I watched that segment on the news, I called my older sister. I ran into her, she didn’t really get it. And the next chance I had to meet with my advisor, I walked into the office and I said, “I’m not studying interpersonal relationships anymore. I’m gonna study stigma. This’s what I’m doin’.” Now, what type of balls I had to be like, “I’m just gonna switch up,” like I had never really studied that before, but I did it. And then from there on out—that was like 2013—that’s when this became a research focus of mine, just bein’ in that space. And then by the time I started doing my PhD, I was like, “Yeah, OK, but there’s other issues here too, right?” So it’s not just about being fat, because then I… you know, you roll up into these fat spaces and then it’s like, “Oh, this is a bunch of fat white women.” And I was like, “This is not good enough.” So are we gonna talk about the lived experience of fat Black women…
Kim: You’re dealin’ with white, fat, feminist mess. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. And if you could imagine white supremacy under the guise of like, you know, I say like they all lives matter fat…
Kim: All fat matters.
Dr. Cox: …lived experience, right. “I don’t understand why there’s a problem, if we’re all fat.” ‘Cause you talkin’ out the side of ya neck, [Kim laughs] and you don’t know what you talkin’ about. And that’s why it’s a problem, right? And so I was like, “Yeah. OK, well, something gotta give.” And then I started to study about the intersections of race and fatness. Which has kinda brought me to where I am now. And then I had an opportunity to write a book. So I just wrote a book that was released in September, which is called “Fat Girls in Black Bodies: Creating communities of Our Own,” ’cause it’s necessary, and it’s important…
Kim: And that’s what you came on my radar. I don’t know if you shared it or someone shared that book.
Dr Cox: OK.
Kim: Yeah, yeah.
Dr Cox: Yeah. And so that’s where I’m at, you know? After I did all this research and stuff, I was like, yeah, well, it’s worth us creating our own communities and not necessarily negotiating, waiting for people to open up doors for us when we’ve been doin’ all this work anyway, and nine times out of 10, the aesthetic of what fat Black women have created shows up in white spaces. So it’s not like we don’t have pull; it’s not like we don’t have this sense of influence….
Kim: Yeah, they appropriate everything we have. Yeah.
Dr. Cox: Yeah. There’s a lot of grabbing as it relates to that, or even just our words. “Oh, can you teach us? Can you tell us?” And then the next thing you see, you know, so and so done created a whole workshop.
Dr. Cox: Wit’ all of that material, right? And I’m like, “OK, yeah, maybe we need to move out and do our own thing.”
Kim: Yes, girl. And what comes to mind is that whole exchange between Julian—whatever her name, Julie?—and Lizzo, when she was sayin’ how she was promoting unhealthy…
Dr Cox: Oh, the “Biggest Loser” lady?
Kim: Yes. Who tortured the hell out them people on that show.
Dr. Cox: Yeah.
Kim: And Lizzo was like, “I do this shit for three hours in the show. What the hell are you talkin’ about?”
Dr Cox: Right, right. Well, and I think a lot of that too stems internally because she don’t like herself.
Kim: Exac—and she’s raisin’ a Black kid, which pisses me off.
Dr Cox: Oh, I didn’t know that.
Kim: Yes, baby. And this is where I say white people—and I’m gonna say it to y’all again—white people raisin’ Black babies, if you don’t have them connected to people who have similar lived experience, you are causing child abuse. Period. I don’t care if you birth them or adopted them.
Dr. Cox: Right, right, right.
Kim: Because her own history with eating is showing up in her damn kid. You don’t have the right to do that. Because you can’t even speak to her honestly about what that looks like in her Black body.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. Right, right. Yeah. No, Jillian Michaels, I mean, I feel like a lot of people hop out here and do stuff for clout, ’cause that was like, now you done been off the radar all this time; you really pop up out of somewhere like you wanna give a commentary or some stuff?
Kim: On a Black fat woman that we love? [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: And have you addressed all the controversy around “The Biggest Loser” and them takin’ pills and all this other stuff?
Kim: Thank you! That’s what I’m sayin’, all that abuse they did on that show with them people.
Dr. Cox: Right? We’re not doing this. Jillian, as far as I was concerned, I said, well, Jillian, she’s a non-factor, and there’s no point in arguin’ wit’ people like that. Because they don’t say stuff because they wanna understand. They don’t say stuff because they really have a point. The only thing that they’re spewin’ is the same fat hate that they’ve been spewin’. And the reason why it carries is because it’s so accepted in society as the norm. But people have been doing research around fat liberation and fat acceptance and how weight loss doesn’t work for decades. The issue is that because of the powers and the money that is…
Kim: I was gonna say, woo, yes, that money behind that shit!
Dr. Cox: We talkin’ about $170 billion industry when we talk about the weight loss industry. And so ain’t nobody lettin’ those research papers fly that tell you weight loss don’t work, you more likely to gain all the weight back in two years and more so than what you lost. Yeah, what we’re tellin’ you is that 95% of individuals gonna wind up fatter than what they started, over the period of two years when you attempt to do weight loss the way that everybody keeps prescribin’ it. And then everybody wonders why they keep getting fatter. The number one predictor of weight gain is attempted weight loss.
Kim: Oh, now I didn’t know that, but that makes sense.
Dr. Cox: Because your body actively works—our body doesn’t pay attention to trends, right?
Kim: [Laughs] It ain’t watchin’ Entertainment Tonight. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right, exactly. So when you cut your caloric intake down, your body says, “Oh, snap! She’s starving. Let me go and hold onto these reserves.” Again, I tell the story about how my body said, “I give you 30 and that’s it.” My body slowdown was like, “You’re not finna kill yourself on my watch.” And what we do is, we get upset at our bodies.
Dr. Cox: Right? We get mad, “How come I’m not losin’ more weight?”
Kim: And then we compare it to somebody else, which makes it even worse.
Dr. Cox: Right. “I’ma step it up a notch.” Now you out here—look, no shade towards the people that do CrossFit—but now you out here jumpin’ 12 foot boxes, right? You climbin’ under obstacle courses and all of this other stuff, in hopes of…
Kim: You breakin’ ACLs…
Dr. Cox: Right! All types of stuff we ain’t never seen, like never done. You know, you just become like a real life superhero type stuff, and it’s all to be smaller; you are actively fightin’ against your body to be smaller.
Kim: OK, so I’m gonna stop you there because you just hit something that just hit in my head. It is the correlation—and this is actual correlation—between you fighting… your body is doing what it’s designed to do, and you have a belief, whether it comes from doctors or whatever, that what your body is designed to do is wrong. And everything you’re doing is in disservice to your body. Now, I’m not sayin’ go out and eat sugary drinks, eat a whole bunch of… but that shit is addictive. They did that shit on purpose, too. But to say… I’m really seeing the… the… I don’t—I’m trying to be inclusive here—because the word “moronic” is coming to my mind, and I think that may be ableist, so I don’t want to say that.
Oh, I’m not supposed to say ableist either because we need to prioritize or present—and I’m sayin’ this because I want people to learn what I’m learning—I’m no longer gonna be saying “able bodied” because I need to be centering the people who are most marginalized, so it would be “non disabled people” when I move forward, just letting people know. But what I’m gettin’—and I’m still working it out, but what you said just hit me—is the absurdity of our bodies… us not, instead of listening to our bodies, we’re listening to marketing. And the people who we trust to tell us this, these quote unquote, these “doctors” are selling us something that goes against our bodies.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. Well, because part of it too is that, again, when we talk about social status, you gotta throw in authority, you gotta throw in power, and in our mind, what we’ve been taught is that the people who are in power operate out of our best interest.
Kim: Yes! Girl, that’s the old positive intent crap.
Dr. Cox: Right. We are less likely to believe that they’re lying to us; we’re less likely to believe that they have other motives. So, I mean, we could talk about this as it relates to police officers. That’s why people have a hard time believin’ that cops lie, cheat, steal, take your stuff, break the law themselves; ’cause to us, that just doesn’t… logically it doesn’t make sense based on what we’ve been taught.
Kim: About their role supposed to be and how they actually show up is two different things. That’s the difference between theory and lived experience.
Dr. Cox: Right. And so it’s the same thing that happens with doctors. Doctors gotta make money like everybody else. And so, I actually work at a medical school now, and I work with doctors and doctors tell me, “We have our administrators come to us and tell us that we have to aks people about obesity, because if we can put it on the chart, then we get more money.” So for years as a fat person, I was going to the doctor like, “OK, I have this sprained finger. What’s goin’ on?” And my doctor would say, “Well, you know, this is one thing, but let’s talk about your weight.” And I used to be like, “Why are we talking about this if my finger is sprained? Can we just stay on topic?”
No, you can’t stay on topic because part of them seeing you is gettin’ money, so they gotta mention this, and then they put it on their chart, and then they give it back to the administrator, and that’s how they collect funds. So when you start to think about this, other people who sell medicine and different things like that go to doctor’s offices and they market; they want you to carry their medicine. They want you to prescribe it to the people. You’re going to get a kickback from that. And so there’s an incentive to promoting weight loss. There is no incentive in telling people, “OK, the same thing that works for John that’s 130 pounds is the same thing that works for you that’s 280 pounds.” You don’t get anything from that. You do get something if you say “Hey, I wanna prescribe you this, and this is supposed to make you feel better. And this is gonna make you look better.”
Kim: And that’s why I left education, because there is no incentive to fix this system. And this is what I want to get to in what you’re saying, because this is why we’re never gonna eradicate the harm that is happening until we deal with the systems, institutions, and policies that are in place to oppress and to cause harm.
Dr. Cox: Absolutely. Absolutely. There is no…
Kim: ‘Cause you get more money per student, first of all, you get more money for special ed kids than you get for gen ed—where they call them general education kids—and you get more money based on the severity of the disability for those kids. And there’s one category called… I can’t remember what it’s… OHP something—it’s Other Health Impairment—and you get the most money for that, and they could put all kinds of stuff in Other Health Impairment. So a lot of the schools are—and that money doesn’t go back to the special ed students! So we’re bringin’ in money to the county, but yet special ed students are scrapin’—we’re buyin’ extra stuff because we don’t get that money to help support the learning of special ed students.
Dr. Cox: Right, right, right. No, I mean, it’s a systemic issue. It’s an institutionalized issue. And there’s so many people that are profiting off of your detriment; so many people profit off of the oppression that’s applied to different groups.
Kim: OK, so now you just hit on where I’m going with my scholarship is profit without oppression. Because I’m… I have no problem with—well, I have a problem with all systems, because all the systems right now are rooted in white supremacy—but I don’t have a problem with private ownership, private businesses, which is what capitalism is in theory. The problem with capitalism I see is that it’s rooted in white supremacy and white supremacy is about chaos and destruction and oppression and all these things. So I want to start talking about can we have businesses that create profit without oppressing? Without the harm?
Dr. Cox: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think… well, that’s some of the things that I kinda touch on in my book, right? Like, what does it look like for us to entreat one another outside of this white supremacist structure? Yeah, white supremacy is pervasive, but how I entreat you, we ain’t gotta do that in our neighborhoods. We ain’t gonna do that in our community. There’s a way for us to entreat one another in a way that we all win. And I think that to your point…
Kim: And directly challenge white supremacy.
Dr. Cox: Right. And I think to your point, like what we talk about, you said profit over oppression profit?
Kim: Profit without oppression.
Dr. Cox: OK, profit without oppression. I think that there’s a way to do that in our communities, and a way that we don’t feel slighted or taken advantage of or exploited. Like you’re not doin’ business wit’ me and makin’ 12 times something and then strippin’ me for all that I have.
Kim: Yes. All your value and all your… yes, yes.
Dr. Cox: And I think that there’s a way to do that, but I think that that also takes a certain level of creativity and innovation and also courage. We gotta start to imagine ourselves, imagine a new reality outside of white supremacist structures. I say this all the time: I don’t know why we even compare ourselves in some ways to white people when white people don’t like each other. I’m not aimin’…
Kim: Girl… [laughs]
Dr. Cox: You know, I’m not aimin’ to be like white people. White people don’t like each other. What would I do that?
Kim: But that’s when you have to throw off, though… you really have to come to terms with everything about our lives has been about assimilation, and for us to actively and consciously reject assimilation. And that takes time to figure out; if I’m not assimilating, then who the hell am I? Because that’s all I know. That’s all I’ve been taught.
Dr. Cox: Exactly. Exactly. Nope. And I absolutely, I 100%, I agree with that, and I feel like that’s part of the issue. I mean, part of bein’ in this capitalist society is the biggest thing that gets stripped from us is time. We don’t have time to think. You know, people say, “Oh, why did you sign the contract?” I don’t have time to read 18 pages when I need a car to drive. I’m finna sign this contract so I can get to where I gotta go.
Kim: And they know that shit! And they knew it.
Dr. Cox: Right. Exactly. They know it. That’s why they put it in six point font, in hopes that you at least, you know, you glaze over some of the stuff. And it’s like having the time to actually think, “OK, who am I? Who I wanna be? How do I envision my life?” instead of somebody giving me this prescriptive form of like, “How my life is supposed to be?”
Kim: And so many people live their lives never asking any of those questions.
Dr. Cox: Oh, absolutely. And never really living out… you know, dying unfulfilled because they haven’t aksed those questions. And then some people have aksed those questions and was like, “Oh, damn, how I’m finna live this?” Like, “How? What? Where?” You know, “What does this mean for me?”
Kim: And that’s another thing, and that’s why representation matters, because we don’t have any representation of… we don’t have… who do we? I mean, I look at right now that the ideas—ooh girl, you tappin’ so many things for me—because the ideas that I have are so fuckin’ big sometimes. It frightens me because I’m like, I have no model on who do I see that does that? Because in the past, the model has been white men, right? If you wanna, you know, Buffett, Musk, all these people who were supposed to—you know, Branson—these are the people we were supposed to emulate. But when I started unpackin’ white supremacy and seein’ how mediocre and unremarkable white dudes were I was like, “OK, you ain’t even in my league,” right? But for me to even say that… how dare I say that mediocre white, unremarkable white dudes who are making billions aren’t in my league? That I’m better than that?
So that’s a whole ‘nother thing that I gotta unpack in my brain. How dare I say that they’re not a good example for me? How dare I dream to—I mean, my goal is to win the Nobel Prize in economics. Not because—first of all, where the fuck did I get that from? How am I gonna get there? Does this prize even mean anything? You know, all these other things, because I don’t have anybody to look at. Somebody might say, “Oh well, you have Oprah.” Oprah didn’t do… no, Oprah’s assimilationist to me, she’s about assimilation. The Obamas are about assimilation to me. They just recently started openly talking ’bout racism and antiracism. All the Black folx that you want me to emulate? They’re assimilationist.
Dr. Cox: But I feel like the magic in this is that you gotta catch people before everybody else sees them. By the time everybody else sees them, there’s already been some things tweaked, and that’s why they’re bein’ seen in the first place. So when I think about changin’ the world and stuff, I think about a lot of grassroots, like what did I have whenever I was growing up? What was that thing that kept me alive? And like no, my aunts, my uncles, my grams, all of those people, they didn’t operate on that same level or scale. But they had the know-how, they had a wisdom about themselves.
Kim: Yes. Yes! Girl, don’t talk about wisdom! Girl! That is what our community has that white people don’t have at all. And I tell ’em—and you cannot rush wisdom. Wisdom takes time, is developed. And that’s what, when people are talkin’ about this coronavirus is hittin’ our communities? That’s what we’re losing. We’re losin’ our community wisdom with all our elders passing away, because these are the people who said, “Oh hell, naw! We ain’t gonna do Trump another fo’ years, so we gonna put this bland-ass white man up against him who he ain’t gonna be able to attack, ’cause this bland-ass white man ain’t never done…” He is so middle of the goddamn road, mediocre, unremarkable; what is he gonna come after this dude for? That’s how we got Biden. But they want to call them “low information” when that happened. No bitches, our ancestors have been here, lived this experience, and they were trying to minimize harm and prioritize the most vulnerable,
Dr. Cox: Right, right. And I think, like you said, that’s somethin’ that you can’t buy. That’s something people—you know, people talk about this all the time, and again, it goes back to white supremacy—so I’m supposed to be this super smart person because I have these letters behind my name. And I’m not shamin’ myself, but I’m saying it took me going through and getting a PhD for me to realize that getting a PhD wasn’t really that hard.
Kim: And that’s what I’m strugglin’ with right now to finishin’ up my degree, because I want—I love my research, but I’m already workin’ in my field. [Laughs] I’m already…
Dr. Cox: And not only that, when you think about the work that’s associated with it, it’s not hard to write a 25 page paper. What makes…
Kim: And the bullshit I’m havin’ to deal with wi’ my second chair, it’s like, “Goddamn dude, can you leave me the fuck alone?”
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. Exactly. It’s everything else, right? If you have a committee that will let you live and you can manage your time, you can get a degree. You can get a degree. But it’s all of these other things; it’s like low key hazin’.
Kim: Yes! That’s what this shit is! This mu’fucka tryna haze me! I’m like, “What the fuck?”
Dr. Cox: Yeah. [Laughs] Right. Exactly, right? So, it’s all these other things…
Kim: And my chair keeps sayin’, “Kim, calm down.” I’m like, “Did y’all read this shit? He didn’t have to write that shit like that.”
Dr. Cox: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, and I’ll tell you, there’s a lot of professors that feel like you are their subordinate. You are… you know, they’re gonna teach you a lesson. I got stories. I got stories, OK? When I tell you they tried to—I had a professor that tried to blacklist me in my department because I didn’t go along with her plans as it related to… she wanted to work on a paper, the paper got accepted, we went to Puerto Rico—we didn’t go, we got accepted—the conference was in Puerto Rico. It won top paper, she decided that she then wanted to present—’cause she told me, she said, “You gotta promise that if we get accepted, you’re gonna go,” ’cause she didn’t have no plans on goin’—the paper won top paper, she was like, “I’m gonna go present.” And I said, “Well, if you gonna go present, I’ma stay home.” Why am I spending all this extra money—as a student—to go to Puerto Rico? I said, “Well, it’s advantageous for me economically to stay where I’m at. Lemme take care of myself.” And then all hell broke loose.
Dr. Cox: …and then all hell broke loose.
Kim: She wanted to take advantage of the paper. She wanted to get the prestige, but she wanted yo ass to do the work.
Dr. Cox: Pretty much. And so what happened, I was like, “Well, I’m not gonna go.” And then I have professors tell me like, “Oh, I can’t sit on your committee when it’s time for you to do your quals exam.” All of this other stuff, you know, all of this muck and mire stuff. And then when I tell you, outta the blue, I had professors that emerged, people I never… like, I had a meetin’ wi’ one professor, I’d never met him formally—I sent him an email—I was sittin’ in his office, I’m doin’ the spiel of why I think he should be on my committee and stuff, and he stopped me mid-sentence and he was like, “I understand you gotta get stuff done. I’ll sit on your committee.”
Help came out of the woodwork and pushed me through. I was funded for four years to do my PhD; I finished in 3 years and some change. And the professor that tried to block me actually wound up being the chair of the department, so she had to sign my paper at the end. And I took solace in that. I said, “Yeah, the same person you tried to stop? Is the person that you gotta sign off and acknowledge.”
Kim: But see, that’s what… you’re speakin’ to Black women right there, though, because they always underestimate us. They always underestimate. And when we end up in front of them, they’re like, “Where the fuck you come from?” Oh, don’t worry about it, Boo boo. Don’t worry ’bout it. I got here ’cause you wasn’t paying attention to me. I’ve been on your heel the whole time. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: You finna watch me stroll past you, unbothered. Because the barriers that you’re tryin’ to set don’t work. They don’t work. And I feel like just the resilience of Black women in general. Our ability to snap back? Don’t ever underestimate that.
Kim: And not only snap back, but snap back and be joyful. The fact that we can still be joyful with all the bullshit that we have ta deal with?
Dr. Cox: Listen. Not a cheekbone, not a cheekbone goes to waste on Black women, OK? [Kim laughs] Not a cheekbone.
Kim: Girl, yes! We be smilin’.
Dr. Cox: That’s part of my purpose in life. Boy, how I be grinnin’ wit’ cheeks like this, and not be able to smile at someone.
Kim: I tweeted the other day, literally, I tweeted the other day: “There’s nothing more radical than unapologetic, joyful Black woman.”
Dr. Cox: We are some of the most dangerous.
Kim: I tell you, collective liberation comes through Black women and all these white folx talking about they allies and blah blah; sit yo ass down. Shut yo mothafuckin’ mouth. Give me my resources and give me yo platform. I don’t need you to say shit else.
Dr. Cox: Exactly. Exactly.
Kim: If I’m savin’ me, I’m savin’ you. So shut up.
Dr. Cox: Right. Just give me the microphone and let me do what I do.
Kim: Let me do me. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. Let me do what I do. And I tell you, Black women—I was raised by Black women; Black men was there, but raised by Black women. I’m talkin’ hitters, shooters, dinin’, winin’, alla dat. Right? Alla dat. And there’s a beauty in all of that; like if you need Black women to get some stuff done.
Kim: Girl, baby.
Dr. Cox: All of that. [Laughs]
Kim: Baby, when you were talkin’ about make some shit happen outta nothing? [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Listen, out of nothing. OK? There’s a reason why people eat ketchup sandwiches. And yeah, it’s about bein’ poor, but there was something special about those sandwiches. Who would have thought? You dig deep enough, I guarantee you a Black woman got that stuff together. OK? I’m tellin’ you.
Kim: Hell, the fact that we eat chitlins; shiiiiit! Girl!
Dr. Cox: Listen. Now, OK, in fairness, I don’t eat chitlins. But let me tell you how I will suck the toes of a pig’s feet in a heartbeat.
Kim: Girl! [Claps] Girl, I remember bein’ a child and the candy lady sold pig’s feet, and we would get us a pig foot and frozen, you know, the frozen Kool Aid in the styrofoam cup.
Dr. Cox: Yeah yeah yeah.
Kim: Girl, we’d sit on the curb. [Unintelligible] [Both laugh uproariously]
Dr. Cox: Listen. OK?
Kim: And we survive. We survive. Everything whiteness throws at us, it causes us harm, but we figure out how to survive that shit.
Dr. Cox: Figure out how to survive it.
Kim: And that’s the problem right now: whiteness has no resiliency. And so what they’re experiencing right now, they have no lived experience on how to get through this shit. So this is why they become violent. This is because they don’t know anything else.
Dr. Cox: But this has been… but you would think, see, you would think by now that there would be some practice adhere to this, because they are really just repeating history.
Kim: But they don’t know history. They’re ignorant. They’re ignorant by design.
Dr. Cox: They get upset, they take they balls, they take your ball, they go home, they set your stuff on fire. [Kim laughs] At some point…
Kim: They burnin’ shit down. They burnin’ shit down.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. These are tantrums. Tantrums.
Kim: But what they don’t realize, you take my ball? Oh, you left me on the dirt? Oh, I can play tic tac toe in the dirt. I don’t need your ball, bitch!
Dr. Cox: Have you ever seen mud balls? You about to see some today. [Laughs] That’s how it be.
Kim: I don’t need yo balls!
Dr. Cox: Right. We mess around and create our own game.
Kim: I can draw hopscotch wi’ my finger. I can get a rock. I can play hopscotch. All these kinda things.
Dr. Cox: Right. We learn how to play the game without the ball.
Kim: Yes, girl. Ball was a luxury. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Shoot, have you ever—I mean, the games that we made up when we didn’t have anything, right?
Kim: Girl, we are resilient, and it comes from the…
Dr. Cox: Yeah, I think people get used to like if you strip them, they will not do. You’re wrong and mistaken: if you strip us, we will recreate.
Kim: And that’s the problem, because based on white supremacy, we should be gone. We should either be still slaves or extinct. And the fact that we keep comin’ fuckin’ back, stronger and better? They don’t know what to do with that shit.
Dr. Cox: They don’t understand why do we… [laugh] they don’t understand why we don’t die. [Laughs]
Kim: Exactly. Exactly.
Dr. Cox: And why haven’t they given up yet?
Kim: And that is—in all seriousness—why the hate is there. “Why do these mu’fuckas keep thrivin’?” The fact that right now this president is pissed that Black cities handed him a goddamn loss? That niggas said, “Oh, hells no!”
Dr. Cox: Right. Right, right.
Kim: You had people votin’ who ain’t ever voted in they goddamn life.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. Well, and people play themselves ’cause the initial thought was they didn’t need us in the first place.
Kim: Yeah, but again, that’s the underestimated. That’s that…
Dr. Cox: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Kim: Yup, and we just sit back in the cut, just like… we just sit back in the cut, be like, “Oh, OK. All right. Yeah. Oh, OK.” Everything you doin’ is just galvanizin’, ’cause I see this shit in Georgia. Oh, y’all can… mhm. Oh, them Black folx about to turn the fuck out in Georgia. Keep playin’. Keep playin’.
Dr. Cox: Anytime a Black person’s sayin’, “OK. OK. All right,” that does not mean “OK” or “all right.” [Laughs] That does not mean that. You gotta know that if a Black person be like “OK, I see you. All right,” that means that they are plannin’ something else. And that’s what Black people been doing. “OK. All right.”
Kim: This is why you get Amarosa, who—’cause y’all underestimated her ass—how the fuck she get a camera and audio equipment in the Situation Room? ‘Cause the bitch knew she needed receipts. Black women, we document everything.
Dr. Cox: Right. Listen, that’s why I probably… I got, like, what? Probably 98% of my mailbox is full now, not ’cause of the emails I’m gettin’, ’cause of the ones that I save. ‘Cause the day y’all try to roll out and say I said some stuff that I did not say? Hold on one second.
Kim: [Laughs] I got a folder for that. Hold on. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. According to my archives, in 2012 I spoke to you…
Kim: In this email. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. Do you remember writing this? Like, exhibit A, exhibit B. Listen.
Kim: Because we’ve had to do that because, you know, when the white tears come, we already know we fucked. So we gotta cover our asses is the best way we can.
Dr. Cox: Right. We come in protectin’ ourselves from the door.
Kim: And it may not work, but you know what? We ain’t gonna go quietly.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. And nine times out of 10, you always know ’cause they usher you out the door quietly when they done some stuff they ain’t supposed to do. “Oh, don’t worry about it. We take care of it. Just go.” Yeah, no.
Kim: Naw bitch. I’m goin’ kickin’ and screamin’. I’m gonna make all the noise in the world.
Dr. Cox: We gonna cause a scene.
Kim: They gonna think you done shanked my ass. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. Right, exactly.
Kim: Because before she started dropping them tapes, it was, “Oh, it’s that dog. She lyin’. Da-da-da-da-da-da.” And I don’t need to be in the same room with that woman, but I can tell you the fact that y’all underestimated a Black woman once again is why she was able to record y’all ass doing that shit.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. Y’all didn’t think that she was as smart as she was.
Kim: Oh, of course not. Y’all wanted her to play the little—and she played the role; I mean, she gonna have to deal with that herself. But Black women ain’t stupid. First of all, she didn’t get that far—whatever you believe about her—she didn’t get that far being stupid.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. Right. She got a sense of hustler. She, you know, she’s a…
Kim: Oh, same with Candace Owens. I don’t want that heifer at my table. I don’t wanna be in company with her, but she’s smart. She know how to play. See, we have always had Candace Owenses and Diamonds and Silks and all these folx in our community. It’s only because of white folx, y’all pay attention. We never paid attention. We knew how to shut that shit down.
Dr. Cox: We… right, exactly. But, and to that—I can, I can, I don’t know if I should—but to that point, we’ve also had our Omar Johnsons and all of them other people, too.
Kim: [Unintelligible] All them motherfuckers. What’s his name? What’s his name, that they got all them damn nicknames for his ass? Shaun King? Only reason Shaun King still makin’ money is ’cause of white folx.
Dr. Cox: Right, ’cause white people still pay attention. And Black people, who part of the community…
Kim: Particularly Black women have told y’all, “This mu’fucka’s a grifter.”
Dr. Cox: Right. Over and over and over again. It’s not even one person, right? I done seen so many open letters on Shaun King. This should be a book. You could just take—just like they did the Bible; the Book of Ecclesiastes—there should be a book. There’s a whole chapter on that stuff.
Kim: Yes, but he makes white folx feel good about they… he helps them subside, helps them relieve their white guilt. He is they little savior. He is high yellow, so he dealin’ with the whole… a dark skinned dude wouldn’t be able to do all this shit.
Dr. Cox: No, no. Listen, he wouldn’t have got past his first fundraiser. I tell you that much. Tell you that real quick. But the thing is, the Black collective? We look at people, we be like, like you said, “OK. Mhm.” We know you ain’t about nothin’. Why would we spend energy on that? We not spendin’ energy arguin’, yellin’ with no Candace Owens. We already know what that is. Go on and get yo money.
Kim: Thank you!
Dr. Cox: But at the end of the day…
Kim: And like I said wi’ Diamond and Silk, I hope they got—’cause that shit turnin’—I hope they have enough savings or whatever, because at some point, you ain’t gonna be useful.
Dr. Cox: There’s a whole host of people gettin’ ready to disappear. Off the radar. Diamond and Silk ain’t gonna be able to book nowhere. Fox News ain’t gonna be checkin’ for them. Candace Owens too. Sorry. Y’all better milk this while you can.
Kim: Get it all. Get it all.
Dr. Cox: And the people that you all cut off in hopes of bein’ able this claim to fame? Y’all gonna have to deal wit’ that afterwards. But all of this other stuff? Again, in the collective, we already know y’all. We see y’all. We’re unbothered. We been unbothered. Ain’t nobody wastin’ no sweat, no tears, no time on that.
Kim: And that’s another thing. So when you say, when Black people are like, “Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh,” another tell is when we unbothered. That’s when y’all need to get scared. ‘Cause when we unbothered, when we not argue wit’ yo ass no more? When we just sittin’ back like, [long pause] and then somebody say something and we just like, “OK, yeah. Uh-huh. Yes. Uh-huh.” When there is no—when that voice is just like, even? [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: One of two things one gettin’ ready to happen: either you are in a place of impeccable peace, or you gettin’ ready to swing on somebody. Now, the people who know you know which one is comin’. [Both laugh] And that’s what’s important.
Kim: But it can be a capital “AND” too, ’cause I could be in perfect peace AND about to swing on yo ass. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. You could just… that deep breath and then come back wi’ a hook.
Kim: Yup. And that swing on yo ass could be a whole—it ain’t gotta be physical—’cause I could take your ass down with a whole lot of shit, because again, you underestimated me. You didn’t realize I had what I had,
Dr. Cox: Right. Listen, I’ve learned a long time ago that my words speak to places and people’s souls that a bullet never could. And so I’m kinda mindful about the way by which I use my words. The ability to read people is a strong thing. And you can read somebody into their souls in ways that they will never recover.
Kim: Girl, before I gained some sense of—I don’t even know what the word is—my goal would be to tear you down. I wanted you in absolute abject terror, and I would just talk. I would just go. I would say the nastiest, the most vile… because that’s all I had to strike back. I couldn’t—I wasn’t gonna fight you. My words? Was all I needed. And it works now, it still works now. I don’t get—people think when I’m on Twitter—”Oh, you just angry.” Bitch, I ain’t angry. I’m soakin’ in the tub. What you talking about? What you… that don’t mean a thing. Why am I upset? Why would I… but I’m readin’ yo ass.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. And my thing is like, it’s the facts from me. Boy, lemme tell you something: if I got words that are factual, if I could tell you about yourself with actual facts? Do you want to dig this grave, or do you want me to do it?
Kim: That’s why I have a Trello fulla articles. Bitch. Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam! Bam!
Dr. Cox: [Laughs] Exactly.
Kim: That’s fine. I’m gonna leave them right there for you. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. And I’m bein’ nice. And you take a deep breath.
Kim: Oh! That reminds me of playin’ Spades. Bam! [Both laugh]
Dr. Cox: Right. Woo, let me tell you something.
Kim: Yeah, run that Boston on that ass. [Laughs]
Dr. Cox: Right. Exactly. Y’all ain’t makin’ y’all books today.
Kim: Yeah, not today! [Dr. Cox laughs] Run that Boston on that ass, yes.
Dr. Cox: Real quick. Real quick.
Kim: Oh, my god. What would you like to say in your final moments on the show, lady?
Dr. Cox: I don’t know. I have no idea. Where am I right now? I have no idea. I thank everybody for tunin’ in. This has been great. This has been wonderful. I mean, I think that havin’ conversations like this among Black women is important.
Kim: Oh, it’s essential.
Dr. Cox: Just knowin’ that there’s solidarity out there, that we’re standin’ with one another, even if we’re operating in different contexts, right? I’m over here doin’ my thing, I’m fightin’. But I join wit’ you. I can stand in solidarity and help you do the work that you do.
Kim: And white folx don’t know shit about that, because they don’t understand community. It’s all about the individual. If they come over this way, they want summin’.
Dr. Cox: Right. Right. Exactly. No, and that’s true, right? And so we out here buildin’ our communities. Let’s keep doin’ it. ‘Cause we are making a difference where we are.
Kim: Yes, baby, yes. We are bringin’ down these systems, institutions, and policies.
Dr. Cox: Yep. Wi’ a smile on our face.
Dr. Cox: I’m gonna tell you, these cheekbones gettin’ put to work, you hear me? [Kim laughs] It’s a good time to be alive.
Kim: Good time to be a Black-ass woman. And on that…
Dr. Cox: Is there ever a bad time to be a Black-ass woman, though? [Laughs]
Kim: Girl, this has been amazing!
Dr. Cox: Yes. Yes.
Kim: Have a wonderful day.
Dr. Cox: All right, you too.
Kim: All right.
Dr. Joy Cox
Listen to more great #causeascene podcasts
Originally posted on August 19, 2018 I will begin this post as I begin each talk, with a list of my credentials because there’s always
There are many reasons that businesses succeed or fail but in an Information Age economy, one looms bright. The reason organizations like Amazon and Walmart